Theosophical University Press Online Edition

James A. Long — 1951 Tour Reports


Meeting at Berlin

Studentenhaus
June 5, 1951 — 7:30 p.m.
Reinhold Bergmann, Chairman
Wilhelm Oehrens, Translator


Reinhold Bergmann, President of the Berlin Branch, had arranged for two meetings in Berlin on the same evening: a meeting for the public first, to be followed by an informal gathering of members only.
The public meeting was opened with a welcome by Mr. Bergmann, who stated that there would be an alteration in the original program as follows: that instead of the article from the Forum which was to have been read, the leader would speak, and then questions would be invited from the audience. Mr. Bergmann invited all to present their questions, either written or orally.
Air on the G String by Bach was rendered by E. Metzeltin.

JAL: Herr Bergmann, Companions, and Friends of Theosophy: I should like first to thank Herr Bergmann and his Berlin Lodge for giving me this opportunity to meet with you all in this discussion group. I am also glad to see so many here on my second trip to Berlin. I was here in January, spent just two days, and met with one of the study groups and had a chance to meet some of the members. But this time the opportunity is afforded to meet with some of the friends of theosophy also, and I am happy for this.

I love to talk about theosophy, naturally. I am going to say very little other than try to give you in as simple words as I know how what I conceive theosophy to be. I consider theosophy to be a system of character building. That may sound strange to some, but to me no faith, no philosophy, no system of study, whether it is scholastic or otherwise, has any value to anyone unless it can contribute something to the upbuilding of the character of the individual. When one gets to know a little bit about theosophy, that god-wisdom that has come down through the ages, he begins to find that the foundation of thought that it represents is really the foundation upon which all religions, philosophies, and sciences are built. Thus we cannot consider theosophy as a religion or a faith; we cannot consider it as a philosophy; nor can we consider it as a science. But we can consider that it is the basic truth underlying all three.

Now everything we learn in life, out of books and in school, can be classified under one of those three categories primarily, so that whether we lean toward philosophy, or primarily towards the ethical or religious form of study, or to the scientific and practical, it does not matter which one, we will find a great need for the other two in order that we may attain, or at least strive for, a more solid basis for our own character.

Those are very general statements. But the real value of theosophy as a character builder, aside from the intellectual values attained through the studies of the other three things, is that it has at its very heart what we choose to call the heart doctrine. When we consider the true essence of the heart doctrine, we in time will come to realize that the development of the heart doctrine in the nature of any one of us will turn our eyes and hearts to the welfare of others rather than to our own. I think that is the real reason why this Theosophical Society is not overburdened with many thousands of members, because theosophy as we conceive it makes no appeal to the selfish side of human nature. Instead its appeal is made to the unselfish side of human nature; and with humanity in its present state of evolution, we can readily understand why the people are not flocking in wanting to become members of the Society.

Now I am not trying to make you folk feel that theosophy is something to run away from. I am saying that theosophy is a system of character building, and the highest character we can conceive of in our present state is that character which is represented by the Masters of Wisdom and Compassion and Peace — those men whom we refer to as the guardians of humanity, great souls who have by the very striving of their hearts attained that position where they have given up all possibility and all desire of any personal advancement or personal benefits, until every human being less than they has reached the point at which they find themselves.

I shall leave to the discussion period the matter of going into more details, and if we have any difficulty in finding something to discuss, then I will say something more. With this much I believe we can start with a few questions. Because I must be in Berlin such a very short time — I leave tomorrow morning at 10:30 — we have arranged to meet after this discussion period with the members only, so I should appreciate it if these first questions be from those inquirers and friends of theosophy who are not members, for the members will have an opportunity at the second meeting tonight. Feel at home, and let us talk about theosophy.

Question: What can we do as a single individual to accelerate the higher development of mankind?

JAL: I wish to express my deepest thanks to the lady for that question. She must know what is really close to my heart. I am inclined to answer your question this way. To me there is only one way, and that is to think more of the other fellow than we do of ourselves. That is very simple, but I am going to talk a little more about that. The whole universe is built upon that quality which I have referred to before as spiritual self-reliance. Spiritual self-reliance naturally implies that we are able to do whatever we wish; but to attain spiritual self-reliance we have got to do those things and practice those things in our daily lives that will develop that quality in our nature. Theosophists consider the constitution of man, of ourselves, as composed of seven principles or categories of principles or elements: the top three representing that portion of our constitution which never dies and comes to birth time and time again, gaining more experience; while the lower four principles, representing the personality of Mr. Long or Mary Smith or John Doe, at death disappears, never to return again as Jim Long, Mary Smith, or John Doe.

Now it would seem obvious, if we want to be really practical, that we should do the things in our daily lives that would strengthen the qualities of that part of our constitution which never dies and comes again and again. If we pay attention to those lower four principles and work a lifetime trying to improve our psychic powers or some other power or quality of the lower four principles, we not only have to throw away completely all those efforts at the end of a lifetime, but they will have strengthened the selfish aspect of our nature so that the attraction of those qualities of selfishness will be greater in the next incarnation than it was in this.

I do not want to get technical, but so many of us, myself included in the days when I was striving to find something that would answer the questions in my heart, miss some of the simple things in life that will do the most good. We have heard and studied esotericism and occultism and everything else. We have organizations and individuals trying to promote what they claim will help you to get a wife, or help you to retrieve your financial losses, or help you to get to heaven fast, or develop psychic powers, clairvoyance, and what have you — all of them appealing to the selfish side of us. Most of us have contacted them in one way or another in our search for real truth, and some of us have spent money in the hope that we would get something out of it. But we usually end up where we began, only too often more confused than ever.

With all of that preamble, it seems to me that the way we can promote that development in our characters which will bring us to the point where we can be of some real service to our fellowmen and to our neighbors and to humanity as a whole, would be to do those things, study those things, and try to be an example of those things which develop the quality that we need and are striving for. We have passed aside some of the simple things. If I were asked what one word of advice I could give to attain a complete unselfishness in my nature, I would say follow that rule which we all know so well and have heard thousands of times, that rule which is found in the Christian scriptures, the Golden Rule: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. We don't have to know a whole lot about philosophy, science, and ethics and the technical aspects of theosophy in order to live that rule. But I can guarantee anybody this: in living that rule to the best of his ability — none of us can do it perfectly — in the process he will learn to know more about ethics and philosophy and practical daily science, living science, than he will ever find in books, or in so-called teachers for so much a lesson, or in any other method whatsoever.

I have a feeling that that answer does not necessarily cover the point, and may not satisfy the lady's question. But there is no shortcut really to the attainment of that which the questioner asked in the normal process of daily life and experience. It can be hurried in another way which in the final analysis amounts to the same thing, and that is for an individual when he reaches that point in his progress where he wants to pledge himself to that great task that the Masters are carrying forward, pledge himself never to think any longer of his own welfare — then that attainment can be hurried if the individual is strong enough to take it. But I don't advise that until one has had quite some years of experience in the normal trends of theosophic study; because when an individual reaches that stage, and the aspiration in his or her heart is so strong that he or she is compelled to make that pledge by an inner impulse carried over from a former incarnation, then — well, the only way I can put it is, all hell breaks loose. By that strong aspiration, the individual has demanded the law of karma to pour into this lifetime a great deal more karma than he would normally have to carry through any one incarnation. What happens is that the bright searchlight of truth is turned full upon his whole nature, both inner and outer, and all of the dark corners of his being are shown up for what they really are. The good in him will be very good, and it comes out to the surface. But so does the bad. And he then begins to experience what we refer to as going through the gateways of purification, and he has a tremendous battle, just as Arjuna in the Bhagavad-Gita did. But even that process is not a shortcut. If he does not fail, it may prove a little shorter than the other way, but it is not very comfortable.

Thus for the average individual, the best answer, and the truest answer, the most honest and the most effective answer I can give to that question, is to try to live the Golden Rule. In so doing one puts to work automatically many of the hidden laws in nature and in life which bring to one progress which he cannot get in any other way. That is a long answer to your question, Madame, but it is the best I can do tonight.

Questioner: I am not a member of the Society, but I know the theosophical teachings, and some weeks ago when I was reading a book which has come recently from America, the Autobiography of Yogananda, I asked myself whether it is not possible to bring about a tremendous uplift of spiritual view of mankind and to expand the circle of those who are able to take this deeper path? For raja yoga is only possible for a very limited number of people, but in this Autobiography kriya yoga seems in my opinion to be a great possibility. Would I be allowed to ask whether in America your Society works together with the Self-Realization Fellowship?

JAL: Thank you very much, Sir. I must say frankly that my heart goes out to the many, many thousands of people throughout the world who have been spending money and working hard trying to follow the pathway outlined by the Vedantists, known as Self-Realization. What I say is not intended as a criticism, because that I have no right to do. But when a question is placed before me, I must speak the truth. My interest as leader of the Theosophical Society is to help form a nucleus of a universal brotherhood, and if I were to criticize the Vedantists, however much we may disagree with them, I would be unbrotherly.

The headquarters of the organization that you speak of is not many miles away from us in California. We are quite familiar with them, with both the good aspects as well as the bad. If the original pure Advaita Vedanta philosophy were that which they are promoting and trying to interest people in, then I could have absolutely no objections in any way, and I could say, yes, we are doing exactly the same thing, because even our own Masters in the Letters to A. P. Sinnett not only spoke highly of Advaita Vedantism, but indicated that the original Advaita Vedantism is exactly the same as their Tibetan philosophy and theosophy.

My friend, I have no doubt that you will be able to get much out of the book you mention, and perhaps you do have the discrimination to weed the correct from the incorrect from an occult standpoint. But I am sorry to say that the Eastern philosophies that have come West have lost their purity, and have been tinged by this yogi and that yogi in exactly the same way that the Christian scriptures have been changed through the process of one translation after another with marginal footnotes by this and that outstanding individual of his time, so that we find the Christian scriptures today devoid of the real occult keys that were originally in them, a mere literalism having come in. The same thing has happened to Advaita Vedantism; the same thing has happened to the Brahmanical teachings, in all their forms; also to the Buddhist teachings, both the Hinayana and the Mahayana, though to a much less degree.

I am trying to help the gentleman understand my thought.

Questioner: Yes, yes, I understand.

JAL: Thank you. Now the very phrase that you find constantly in all Vedanta advertising and comments in the West is self-realization. It reminds me of the parallel, not in details but in principle, of Anthroposophy and theosophy. Anthroposophy means, broken down, a knowledge of man. Theosophy, broken down, means wisdom of the gods, or god-knowledge. Therein lies the difference in principle between theosophy and Vedantism or self-realization. I cannot deny that there is a pathway there, and that it will change a man for the better. But what is the ultimate goal? Self-realization. And what is that insofar as the world is concerned? I certainly don't look down upon it. But the ultimate outcome of a perfect student of self-realization, if he is able to discriminate between the true and the false in Vedanta scriptures as they are today and the many interpretations put on them by this and that yogi, and reach his ultimate goal, will be to become what we call a pratyeka buddha, and enter the door into nirvana. Now maybe that is what all of us want. I don't.

There is a great difference between a pratyeka buddha and a buddha of compassion and peace and harmony. They both get to the point where they can step through the doorway into nirvana and permanent bliss. The pratyeka buddha enters and enjoys his bliss, and there is no doubt it is genuine. But the buddha of compassion says: "No, I cannot enter until the last one of my brothers can enter with me." That is the difference. So it is a matter of choice, whether we want to attain bliss and enjoy ourselves until the end of the manvantara, or whether we want to have a higher bliss and a greater joy by helping our brothers until they can do as we can do. I won't go into the matter of what happens in the beginning of the next manvantara with the pratyeka buddha and the buddha of compassion, because that is too far afield just now. But there is a great difference.

Referring specifically to the point of whether our Society works with the Vedanta societies: No, we don't work together. We have been on the same platform. Just a year or so ago Miss Knoche spoke to quite a large gathering in California in which one of the better Vedantists, Swami Prabhavananda, spoke with other religionists, and I might say that though we had only about six or a dozen theosophists in the audience, as we were not trying to take a great many people there for propaganda purposes, theosophy made the real appeal to the audience.

As an organization, just as with an individual, we can judge what they are by what they do and the way they do it, but it is not within my province to go into those details. This one simple thing I can say, that spiritual values and spiritual knowledge — and I am not speaking of any yoga but raja yoga, because that is the only yoga that deals with those three higher principles mentioned earlier — cannot be bought. And any such knowledge that is offered with a price on it, automatically takes itself out of the spiritual category in the real sense. I hope I have been able to say something of interest and help to the gentleman.

Questioner: Thank you. I am convinced that this yogi will not become a pratyeka buddha.

JAL: Well, I hope he does not; I hope you are right. But it takes a long time to get there.

Mr. Haberreiter in extremely rapid German then rose to say that the distinction drawn by the leader between the pratyeka buddha and the buddha of compassion "is not correct; that the buddha of compassion is not teaching, but the pratyeka buddha is following his office of teaching, but both of these sides are necessary." He went on in extension of the above, but so swiftly and excitedly that the translator was unable to interpret.

JAL: We must have both sides. That is part of nature. But this Theosophical Society is not interested in the pratyeka buddha side in so far as its aspirations to become such are concerned. I thank the gentleman for his comments.

Mr. Haberreiter then said in part that "in no case would the pratyeka buddha be of inferior value."

JAL: Thank you for your comment. I do not care to discuss this further because there are other people here who want to ask questions.

Questioner: I am not a member of the Society, but I am a member of a youth organization. I am a member of the socialistic organization which is founded upon the teaching of Marx, but nevertheless these problems which are discussed here appeal very much to me, and I find a certain connection between our socialistic view of the world and your view. And my question is the following: how is your organization, your community, dealing with questions of daily public life? For I should like to say thereby that the organization as I find it here is very good as far as spiritual things are concerned, but it would be of no use or benefit provided it could not get success in daily life. Therefore I would be very grateful if you would answer my question.

JAL: Thank you very much. There we get to the two opposite ends of human nature again — the outer human nature and the inner human nature — and the greatest difference that I can see between the original Marx concept, not as it is interpreted today necessarily, and the basic teaching of raja yoga or theosophy, is that the Marxian theory as it was in its original purity was intended to bring about that brotherhood that he conceived from the outside in. Whereas the theosophical method is intended to unfold that spark of divinity which each of us has in our hearts from the inside out. It resolves itself into this simple statement of facts: that the theosophist is interested more in causes than in effects, and the true theosophist believes that we will never correct the wrong causes by treating the effects; but by removing the wrong causes with a right cause, the effects will take care of themselves.

Now, to the last part of the gentleman's question: I said, that is what a true theosophist believes. The Theosophical Society as such takes no official interest in or part in any political, economic, religious, or philosophic activity. I think that answers the question.

Questioner: Thank you very much.

Questioner: I should like to hear what Mr. Long thinks about Paul Brunton.

JAL: I myself in my search for truth had recommended to me some years ago Paul Brunton's writings, and I have this to say for Paul Brunton: if all such writers were as harmless as Paul Brunton, this old world would move along a little faster towards spiritual progress. My only objection, and I won't call it an objection, but will express it this way, and I think the lady will get my thought: Paul Brunton took me on up and up and up, to a point where I thought, "My gosh, this is what I have been looking for all my life." But then Paul Brunton lost himself in this way, that his feet got off the ground. His mysticism took full possession of his soul, and I could no longer find the keys in his writings and in his thoughts that would help me to use what he said in the daily problems of the life that I had to live. But he did not leave me with a sour taste in my mouth, and no matter if he did not help me figure out this problem or that, he left me feeling better. But when I found theosophy, I found a great deal more than Paul Brunton had to offer. I found here that I could go up and up and up, and yet always had an anchor on the ground so that I found in time the ability through theosophy to solve my daily problems, which at that time were real problems, I can assure you. But I would not discourage anyone from reading Paul Brunton, at least his earlier works, though his later ones on yoga, etc., I do not consider very helpful.

And now, Mr. Chairman, and Friends: I would like to thank you all for participating in this discussion. I regret that we don't have more time, but I owe the Berlin members an opportunity to meet them and talk with them a little, but maybe if I come to Berlin again next year, we will be able to meet together and have a lot more fun talking about theosophy. Thank you very much.

Mr. Bergmann closed the public meeting at 9:15 p.m.

After a brief intermission, the members' meeting was convened by Mr. Bergmann.

JAL: Thank you very much, Herr Bergmann. My purpose on this trip in Europe is to meet the members and exchange thoughts with them regarding the work they are doing for theosophy. The calling of the Congress at Utrecht made it possible, and happily so, that I come to Europe at this time instead of later, in July or August or September, when I had originally planned to come.

When I made my trip around the world for Colonel Conger, it was very evident to me that the membership throughout Europe, as well as in Australia, were long overdue for a visit from Headquarters. This was particularly true of Germany. The members here in Germany have not had a visitor from Headquarters for nearly 20 years. In 1946 Colonel Conger sent John Van Mater, Kirby's brother, and his wife, to Europe; and Colonel's heart, as did John's, nearly broke when he found that they could not get to Germany, because the Colonel realized how much the German members wanted and needed at that time a visitor from Headquarters. It goes without saying to members such as you that every one of our national sections is very close to our hearts; and the joy and the real spiritual pleasure that we have received from this trip so far cannot be measured by any words of mine.

I have really no special message except to say that I am very happy to be here and to talk with you about anything that you have on your hearts. I understand that we have a few members from a little distance. Those members not from Berlin please raise their hands. I would like to meet you personally afterwards and have a special little talk with you.

Mr. Maier: We would like to bring forward the greetings of those companions who were unable to come, particularly from the leader of our group who did not know whether he could travel or not.

JAL: Thank you very much indeed. I will speak with you after the meeting here for a moment.

Now, what would you like to talk about? Has anyone any question?

Mrs. Steffen: I should like to say that we are ready to participate in this very extensive and comprehensive program of the partnership. We feel particularly favored by the report of the Congress in Holland, that we were able to participate in the proceedings there through our president. This has tied a bond.

JAL: Sometimes I am very much touched, very susceptible it seems to the heart touch, and at times some people's hearts cry out so loud I cannot hear what they are saying. In other words, just sitting here together this evening does something to me that makes the job that I have got on my shoulders very, very much easier. And the remarks of our dear companion there have been extremely encouraging to me insofar as the hopes I had in my heart for the growth and expansion of this spiritual partnership which has been inaugurated are concerned. And while there have been many more dramatic incidents during my trip that proved the value of the decision I made at that time, that I would insist upon being considered as one among equals and not first among equals, that simple statement of the lady's means just as much to me as the most dramatic experience. It is in that capacity I am here tonight as one among you, to help share your problems and responsibilities as theosophists, and have you share mine. It is the only way our work will succeed in the future.

At this point in the history of the Society when we have a tremendously long pull today up to 1975 and beyond, that bond that the lady spoke about must be welded closer and closer together so that our hearts in this work of theosophy become welded together as one. The more that takes place in the true theosophic sense, the more the world around us will begin to take on a little more of the same thing. I mean by that that we as theosophists in this Theosophical Society have a responsibility to the world far beyond that which any of us has ever realized, and I don't mean by that that we have to go out and do this and do that. What I mean is this: just as I said to the young man at the public meeting here tonight, we are interested in dealing with causes. If we treat these wrong causes properly, and we can do it with the spiritual aspirations that we carry in our hearts and the attitudes we maintain in our daily lives, the force of that combined and unified spiritual effort, when it does break through on the outer plane, will affect every country in which we have a national section, and will influence beyond our conception the quality of leadership and activity in every nation.

The Masters are not missing anything that is going on in this Society or in the world, and we know that they touch a man on the shoulder here and there, as the saying goes. But they must work with karma, and since this Society is their only outer formal organization, you can easily see what it will make it possible for them to do if we together and in the real spiritual partnership send them the spiritual power to do it in a natural karmic way.

We have read a lot about that sort of thing in theosophic books from time to time, and in HPB's own remarks, yet it is hard to realize that it really works that way; but it does. The Master Jesus pointed up very sharply the operation of that very law I now speak of when he used the parable of the widow's mite, pointing out the true inner spiritual value of that individual's inner devotion to the spiritual welfare of the world.

Mrs. Schmidt: Would it be possible for you to give a short outline concerning the affairs and work in Pasadena, and about the home of our Leader?

JAL: Yes, I will be glad to. I have recognized the need in all of the national sections for the members to be brought closer to Headquarters, and it is my hope that you will soon know that this partnership idea is not just words. In the past, because of the war and the circumstances after the war, it has been impossible to do all that we would have liked to do. Colonel Conger time and again, every year in fact, wrote to friends of his in Germany, not only theosophists but friends whom he made while he was Military Attache in Berlin during 1924-28, that he hoped he would be coming over and would see them "next year." His spirit was willing, but the flesh was weak, as the Master Jesus says. It was not weak really; it could not have been weak considering all the trips by motor that he took back and forth across the United States! It was my privilege and pleasure to drive him back and forth across the United States (about 3,000 miles) a number of times. He was a truly wonderful man. In his condition and at his age, he let nothing stand in the way of the theosophy and the theosophic work that he loved. He never drove us. But he was that type of man if he just looked at you when something had to be done, no matter how hard it was, even if we had to work all night long for two nights, without a word from him, we would have worked till we fell over. Not one of us felt otherwise. That is the way we worked with Colonel Conger, and he worked with us.

He wanted to come to Germany and it broke his heart that he could not. And when he sent me around the world, I could not understand sometimes just what it was that I seemed to sense, not in any phenomenalistic way, but when I returned to Pasadena I learned from those who were with him constantly while I was gone what had occurred, and I realize that I must have been feeling his thoughts with me constantly. The things that are now taking place in the Society are the things that he hoped he might be able to do himself.

Now we have gone a long way from the lady's request about Pasadena. I will give you a brief word picture, and then after the meeting, if we don't get chased out of here, Kirby will share a few pictures of the leader's residence and the new Deodars or Headquarters house in Altadena. They don't show very much, but they give you a rough idea of where the staff is now living. [Speaks of the various properties and staff members.]

GdeP himself tried awfully hard, and it broke his heart when he could not do this at the time he moved from Point Loma. But he just could not do it. He could not cut down from the great number who were at Point Loma to this smaller number at this time. Studley Hart went with GdeP on his trips when he was looking for Covina, and he told us that when GdeP would come to a house like the Deodars, he would go back and look at it, and go back and go back. But the time was not yet ready. So it was up to Colonel Conger to take the next step, and he did.

I can only say that I myself do not understand why it has been my good karma to pick up where Colonel left off, with the stage set so perfectly, both in an outer way and in an inner way, so that we can make this partnership really work.

Mrs. Richter: Our greatest wish is to be able to buy a small headquarters of our own. It is only that we cannot do very much for it because we have not the means.

JAL: This may surprise you, but it is my conviction that for lodges they are a greater hindrance than a help quite often. But I hope by the time Berlin is able to consider such a thing we will be able to get so well acquainted with the membership generally, and have a firmer understanding of the dangers involved, that lodges can go ahead and have property that will help the work of the Society rather than hinder it. I say this not in discouragement, but as a bare statement of fact. In every case where we have had lodges which owned property, in time they became one of the worst stumbling blocks to the real progress of theosophy in that city. That may sound strange, but it is a fact.

Question: Is it possible to send over books in the German language?

JAL: It is not an impossibility, if we had them to send. But that is another job that I inherited, and I cannot give you very much immediate encouragement. For this reason: we don't have over there the German translators, nor do we have the facilities to set the type in the different foreign languages at this time, though this last is not really a difficult thing. But for a while the German literature you get will have to be translated in Germany.

Questioner: We have such difficulty in getting paper.

JAL: Just a minute; I am not finished yet: that is the situation now, but we have recognized for some time the great need that exists in Germany, as well as in Sweden and in Holland too, for literature in your respective languages. Holland does not pose too much of a problem because there a great percentage of the membership reads English, and more and more each year are learning to read it. The position in Sweden is not quite so favorable, but they do have quite a few books already translated and published in Swedish. But Germany and its problem of literature is also very close to our hearts, and I have already started negotiations for arrangements through Dr. Oehrens to establish in Germany a Theosophical University Press Agency. We started this when I was here in January last so that we could get even our English books over here under conditions that would enable our members to buy them, not by paying the equivalent number of Deutsch marks to our American dollars, but on some basis whereby a price could be set which would make it possible to sell them here at cost to us. Then the money received from the sale of those books will not be sent out of the country in dollars, but will be retained here for the use of Headquarters whenever the leader or any of his representatives come over.

Now that is the most we can do at the moment. But if I can get the American members to support the idea — it will take a few years maybe to work it all out — I have a vision which may or may not come to pass of having two Swedes, two Germans, and two Dutchmen over at Headquarters who can do the translating and the editorial work necessary, so that we can print the books completely there in Swedish, Dutch, and German, and send them over here. All this is going to take time, and I am not sure I can find the people to do it, or the money — but I am going to try.

I think we had better close before we get in trouble with the doorkeeper. Thank you all, every one of you.

Mr. Bergmann: I want to thank Mr. Long particularly that he has made it possible to give us this evening. Thank you, Dr. Oehrens, for the beautiful job, the wonderful interpretation.

JAL: I am only sorry that I could not spend the two days originally planned here, but my schedule was such that I could not get a plane from Nuremberg to Berlin until today, and we can only come into Berlin as you know by plane, not by train or motor car, so I was confined to the one day here. But next time I come, as said, I hope to spend much more time with you. Thank you all, and good night.

The meeting closed at 10:45 p.m.

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